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patkBut rather John/Rodney/Keller. *puts tinhat on, steps up on soapbox, grabs pointer and flip chart*
Rodney:
We know that Rodney was thinking about "reproducing" since as early as season 2. The only remark I can think of immediately is from "Runner", when he talks to Lorne: "As it is, I may have to forego reproducing." But I think we heard something similar from him (passing on his genes or something like that) at least once more and I *think* it was even earlier (though not sure, if someone can remember this, please, let me know). It seems the nebulous, vague idea of "reproducing" was there before he even had an "appropriate" candidate who could participate as well in said "reproduction".
The next ep is "Duet" which has Rodney having a (first?) date with Katie Brown and Carson being very surprised about Rodney having a date "with a woman". Which I don't count so much as a pointer towards him being gay but rather towards him having dated not noticeably before, hence Carson's surprise.
Notice the order: first the idea of "reproduction", *then* the sudden dating of a woman of appropriateness, so to speak.
Disaster strikes in the form of Cadman possessing his body and the next time we hear from Katie it's almost two years later in "Sunday", when we learn that
a)Rodney avoided her for a few month after "Duet" and
b)quote Rodney: "I mean, she and I see so little of each other, I’m not sure we even count as a couple. "
Yeah, seems like a true, hot love affair.
Interesting that this is the same episode in which we see John addressing the possibility of Ronon being interested in "a man" which makes it pretty clear that Sheppard apparently doesn't have any big problems with this particular concept.
Anyway.
Rodney has a pretty awkward talk with Katie in "Sunday" in which he admits:
"It’s funny, you know? I mean, much as I hate to admit it, seeing my little sister so happy with her family, I just ... Well, it kind of made me realise that, uh ... well, I’d like to get married."
Which gives me the impression that he hasn't fallen so much for a certain woman - like Katie - but has fallen for the *idea* of having a family, meaning a wife and kids, triggered by - I guess - the events in "McKay and Mrs. Miller".
And their smoldering hot relationship smolders on and on and on - over "Tabula Rasa" where he almost loses her (but even this doesn't trigger an immediate response in form of a proposal) and it takes *Jeannie's* prodding, to spur him into action.
JEANIE: So, are you gonna marry her?
McKAY: I don't know.
JEANIE: You've been dating for over a year now.
McKAY: I'm aware of that, thank you!
JEANIE: You think you're gonna find someone better?
McKAY: No, it's not that.
JEANIE (laughing): ‘Cause you're not!
And finally, a few eps later, in "Quarantine" we see the train-wreck of proposal happening with the foreseeable result.
And the *next* thing we see on this front is Rodney considering Keller.
What can I say, to me, this looks suspiciously as if Rodney still hasn't given up on the "I want a family"-concept but has just wandered on to the next "appropriate" and "available" woman who might be a good candidate to bring that concept to life. Don't get me wrong, I actually believe that he *thinks* he loves her - after all, she *is* not bad in handling him - and doesn't actually acts consciously in the way I spin the tale here.
If he would, he wouldn't chose Keller since a woman like her most likely won't share his (assumed) idea of a Miller-like model-family because, who do you think would be supposed to take back a step or two from the job in order to take care of Rodney's kids? Rodney? Between Jumper-maintenance, looking for a way to build ZPMs and saving the Pegasus-galaxy on a weekly basis? Yeah, thought so.
Plus, as it was with Katie, he has already started to put on an "act" around her. He's trying to impress her, "change" himself in order to appeal to her and since he doesn't do this because he himself wants it but only for her sake, this is bound to fail sooner or later. He may even marry her but I bet a year's salary this marriage won't (or wouldn't, depending on what happens during the rest of the season) survive either the first year or the birth of their first child, whatever comes first.
Now, since we know the *real* reason why Rodney McKay chases after women but somehow seems to lack a certain passion while doing so, let's take a look at the question who he might actually *want* to chase after, but hasn't *realized* it up to now because he got on the wrong track with that family-idea and hasn't left it yet.
This question is answered with two words: "The Shrine".
And what is John's position on all that?
John is seriously and silently pining after Rodney, of course, but won't *ever* act on it 'cause Rodney is chasing persistently (though so far *literally* fruitlessly) his dream of kids and family and therefore marriageable women.
Seriously.
From John's "like a friend" (Tao), over Rodney's dead being his biggest fear (Doppelgänger), his anxious question for McKay at the end of "Tabula Rasa", his "I can't" from "Miller's Crossing" (the moment that turned "John loves Rodney" into my personal canon) and the whole Wallace-thing, his face in "Quarantine" when he learned about Rodney's plan to marry Katie right up to his "McKay's alive?" in "Search and Rescue" and the way he looks up and down Keller's back in "The Seed" - the moments where you can see how much Rodney means to John get more frequent and stronger, compared to the earlier seasons.
And then came "The Shrine" and I don't think I have to comment on that.
Now "Tracker" opened with a scene that's very hard to interpret in any other way than John feeling hurt an jealous. Yes, granted, he could feel hurt and jealous because suddenly he plays the second fiddle to Keller when it comes to Rodney's priorities on with whom he wants to spend his day off, but I have my tinhat firmly in place right now. *G*
The way John presses his lips together and turns around to leave without another word or so much as a "later" ... well, what can I say...
I can't help it, it makes so much sense to see it like that. Rodney chasing after his idea of having an ideal "Miller-family" and therefore approaching women like Katie and Jennifer despite John (unperceived) being the most important (and as we saw in The Shrine most unforgettable) person in his life, the one he gravitates towards when everything else is leaving him, and John watching him year after year after year, falling in love with him and never saying a word 'cause, yeah, Rodney's going for a *family*, with kids, something John can't provide anyway and seeing him "falling" for Keller hurts a little more than everything else before 'cause he knows from "The Last Man" that Keller actually *is* a possible match for Rodney.
*takes tinhat off, polishes it happily with a sleeve*
Yeah, they *do* have their love-triangle on SGA but it's not quite the one they were aiming for.
And I love it. *G*.
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Date: 2008-09-25 09:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-09-25 09:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-09-25 09:58 pm (UTC)Print it.
Signs it.
I don't know anything else to say other than: I TOTALLY AGREE.
I mean, there are shows where you say "Oh they're gay for each other!" and in reality, no, they aren't. And then there's SGA. Where you can't deny, that John and Rodney have very much chemistry and the scenes, while you can interpet each of them with friendship, all of them together, though? It just points into one direction. Big.Epic.LOVE.
No one can tell me, that John doesn't love Rodney, in a sexual way.
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Date: 2008-09-25 11:23 pm (UTC)If Rodney had been a woman in that scene, nobody, not even the "average" audience would have doubted that "McKay" is Lt Col Sheppard's love of his life. Same goes for the opening scene of Tracker. Put a woman in Rodney's place and let the scene play out the exact same way - voilá, the hurt and jealousy becomes blatant and openly visible.
Carl Binder did a Q & A session in Joe Malozzi's blog and was asked if the subtext in this scene was intentional. His answer was that, while they often try to put subtext into scenes, this particular scene wasn't supposed to have it. He said that he was going more for Sheppard finding it odd that Rodney was volunteering to work on his day off rather than him being put out by it.
Well, apparently neither the actors nor the director or the camera operator got that memo. *G*
The scene is *loaded* with meaning and look at the camera work in this scene, how John appears in Rodney's mirror. That's practically an exclamation mark of importance. Clearly, the audience is *supposed* to notice something here and if all we're supposed to notice is, that it's "odd" that Rodney spends his day off with Keller at *work* in order for us to realize that Rodney has a crush on Keller, then they clearly overshoot the mark because - yeah - we watched "The Shrine", we *know* that he *said* he loved her. No need to drive that home now with a scene that's - in *that* regard - a step backwards. We heard the words, we *know*.
So, the only reason left to put in an appearance of John in that scene is, to show us how *John* feels. And bravo SGA, you succeeded wonderfully with that, even if the result disagrees a little with what Carl Binder hat in mind.
Hurt, jealous John. And a Rodney who knew perfectly well that he did - somehow - hit a sore spot of John's. It's clear from John's words that he apparently didn't learn about Rodney's off-world trip from Rodney himself and isn't that reason to wonder why? I man, the guys *are* best friends and care deeply for each other - canonically - and Rodney even showed John Katie's wedding ring and did generally not make a secret of his "relationship" to Katie.
Which begs the question, why did Rodney keep silent about his upcoming "adventure" with Keller? There's a backstory here that we aren't told. *ggg*
*puts her tinhat on your head*
There - perfect fit! *G*
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Date: 2008-09-25 11:41 pm (UTC)I read that. And squeed. Because it either means, that Flanigan is really bad at acting put out (which no, we saw he can do that), or he intentionally put the subtext in it (Yeah. I believe that. I really, really do) . I don't know about the scripts, but they don't have things like "Sheppard is supposed to be put out" written on it, have they? *ggg* So it's all Joe's fault really. And David's a bit, because he just goes with the flow. *g*
And there's no way, you can see that scene as Sheppard being put out. Like you pointed out. The way he just went away? Without a word, with that look? No, definitely not put out, but hurt.
And a Rodney who knew perfectly well that he did - somehow - hit a sore spot of John's
Absolutely. The way he averts his eyes and everything? It's a tell tale sign for Rodney lying and being uncomfortable. And you really have to wonder why that is, because, like you said, Rodney did never make a big deal out of his crushes. He always talked to John in one way or another. Not here, though.
And yeah, if Rodney would've been a woman, no one would question the big epic love thing. No, tptb would've made a big deal out of showing that they're crushing on each other like with Carter and O'Neill. *rolls eyes*
*puts her tinhat on your head*
There - perfect fit! *G*
It looks like mine, too! *gg*
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Date: 2008-09-26 08:09 am (UTC)Which he isn't. *G*
>>So it's all Joe's fault really. And David's a bit, because he just goes with the flow. *g*
And the director's because he lets the actors get away with a performance that clearly telegraphs "meaningful things/emotions happening" and shoots the scene in a way which even enhances this - the mirror-thing.
You know, I *think* it was in Cupidbow's journal lately that someone mentioned she/he could remember that JoeF said in a con-report (or something similar) he plays Sheppard secretly in love with Rodney intentionally but the commenter couldn't remember where she/he read that.
The funny thing is, I also can vaguely remember having read something like that (and yes, I think it was a con-report but I can't remember *where* I read it), though my feeling says what I read wasn't as clear cut as this sounds at first sight. More a hint or a joking remark. Just enough to get the audience excited with the *possibility* of a sliver of truth being in the idea that JoeF might play Sheppard intentionally in love with Rodney rather than a flat out "Yes, I do" from JoeF.
Now, if I could just *find* that report again...
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Date: 2008-09-26 01:15 pm (UTC)But yeah, Flanigan so knows what he's doing! I remember the ComicCon Video, where he stated his favorite scene was the Pier Scene from The Shrine, with him and McKay there and all.
And then the audience of course cheered. And he just said "It involves beer" and the crowed cheered louder. He knows it and loves it. *ggg*
God, I would love to ask him, I just never will. lol. (Maybe we'll get lucky and one day, when SGA is over, Joe really does answer that question heh)
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Date: 2008-09-26 08:04 am (UTC)Und hier musste ich echt lachen, denn das liest sich wie einer deiner Beta-Kommentare zu meiner Story. LOL
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Date: 2008-09-26 08:13 am (UTC)Und das auch Profis eine Beta brauchen können? ;-) *ggg*
Wenn ich das so objektiv durchlese muß ich sagen, du hast Recht. Aber gemerkt hab ich das beim Niederschreiben nicht. *kicher*
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Date: 2008-09-25 11:06 pm (UTC)Exactly!!!
Here we have male characters that aren't really aware of their emotions and feelings - written by the mostly (all?) male writers, who are probably equally oblivious to the emotions and feelings that they are writing.
RE: acceptance of male/male relationships in a society (the possibility of Ronon being interested in a man etc.) -- Recently I talked with a gay friend about the idea of male/male relationships being something other than sleazy or offensive or repulsive. He just laughed at me. *sigh* Apparently my fangirl self is far into wishful thinking on that.
P.S. I saw the "tin hat" discussion, and didn't know if the idea of the "tin foil hat" (to ward off ideas and influence from aliens/gov't/bad guys) was part of it - but either way - keep YOUR tin hat on, and here's a tin foil hat icon to help the cause!
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Date: 2008-09-25 11:31 pm (UTC)Currently: "all". They don't have a female writer in their stable.
>>Apparently my fangirl self is far into wishful thinking on that.
Oh, hey, I think you're *so* not alone in that. :-)
>>keep YOUR tin hat on, and here's a tin foil hat icon to help the cause!
Hat is firmly in place for now and thanks for the supporting foil-cap - the more, the merrier. *G*
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Date: 2008-09-25 11:37 pm (UTC)The glee comes in as I am currently working with the_cephalopod on a fic that covers just these points, though I must admit the reproduction/family issue did not strike me as forcibly as it did you--I think we're going to have to look harder at that as we write. I'm going to direct Cep here because I think she needs to read this!
Also, no one hit me here, but I *love* the Rodney/Keller/Ronon triangle that canon would have us believe is real. I love it because there is so much ground for comedic fodder, but more importantly, a perfectly balanced triangle, with Keller as a focal point, will go *no where*. She can teeter between Rodney and Ronon for *years* and never have to commit within the limited amount of time left to canon (note that I do not believe there will be more than one SGA movie). As such, we do not have to watch Rodney getting married, having kids etc. :-)
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Date: 2008-09-26 12:02 am (UTC)Oh, a fic that covers these points? I'm *excited* to hear that. Actually, the first time I made this entry I was tempted to end it with "Now, please, someone writes a story covering all that" but decided against it since it sounded somewhat ... *uhm* demanding. *G* Now I'm all the more glad to hear that you and The Cephalopod have actually something like that in the works. :-) And of course, send her over, the more the merrier. *G*
And you have nothing to fear, nobody is going to hit anybody here. ;-) While I don't exactly love the RKR-triangle, I like the fact that it actually gives us pining, jealous John as a result (and I noticed the jealousy towards Keller even before Tracker. The Seed, for example, the way John's smile instantly vanishes and he sizes her back up and down the very moment she turns around to leave the infirmary). In this way Keller as the obstacle works pretty well for me and the funny potential I can see too.
The only thing I fear is that the writers actually *do* mess up and marry them before the season ends or do it in the movie instead of keeping it in the balance. This I wouldn't want to see ... except... yeah, Rodney as the tragic widower comforted by John (who never really left his side, of course) that too would work for me. *G*
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Date: 2008-09-26 12:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-09-26 08:20 am (UTC)Actually, aside from her being a potential love-interest for Rodney, I have nothing specific against her character. Don't particularly like her but also don't particularly dislike her, she leaves me kind of cold but, you know, if the script-writers actually *do* kill her at some point towards the end of the official canon, I would actually *prefer* if she had a relationship with Rodney before her dead. *If* they give us the "John is *there* for Rodney"-moment in the aftermath, that is. *G*
And because I would *so* look forward to the flood of "John comforts Rodney which leads to Rodney acknowledging his *true* love"-fics. :-)
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Date: 2008-09-26 12:21 pm (UTC)I love your woobie!Rodney/John comfort fics you propose though. And when Keller died in one time line, Rodney spent the next 25 years *bringing John back*. *snerk*
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Date: 2008-09-26 01:36 pm (UTC)Imagine an woman of that age (yeah, okay, let her be attractive, after all we *do* have an audience to please and neither Elizabeth nor Sam was hard on the eyes, quite the contrary ;-) ) with matching experience and credibility, someone who's proven what she can do, has razor-sharp brains, a single-minded devotion to the well-being of her people *and* Larrin's lack of scruple when it comes to choosing methods to get her way. Someone not necessarily likeable but possibly dangerous. Now *that* would put John in trouble. ;-) Okay, I digress... *G*
>>I love your woobie!Rodney/John comfort fics you propose though.
*g* You and me and probably a thousand fangirls out there as well. :-)
>>And when Keller died in one time line, Rodney spent the next 25 years *bringing John back*.
Despite the possibility that he perhaps wouldn't get a chance with Keller the second time around. John even *told* him so.
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Date: 2008-09-27 02:21 am (UTC)Don't get me started on the strong, mature women leaders in sci-fi thing. If she's strong then she's ugly. If she's pretty, then she's young. If she's pretty and strong and mature, then they have to make her seriously flawed somehow--like totally insane.
I *really* think you'd like David Weber's Honor Harrinton series. In the first book, she's sent to a dead end posting because she made an admiral look bad and she's given an *impossible* set of duties to perform. Instead of whining about it (which is what her brand new crew wants to do, as well as blame her for being there) she grits her teeth and *gets it done*. Her crew goes from resenting her to hating her to being willing to die for her. Really great space opera stuff too.:-)
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Date: 2008-09-29 07:18 pm (UTC)Or she will become a victim of her own success - as John has pointed out so appropriately. But to save the script authors' honor: I really think they wouldn't have written Sam out of the series if "Sanctuary" hadn't interfered with their schedule and I actually liked the idea that, when they got rid of one female leader they substituted her with another woman of strong caliber and of an age that actually makes experience *possible*. But regarding sci-fi in general: yeah, it happens more often than not that I have to shake my head about a casting decision for a female character, let alone a female *leader*.
Honor Harrington, yes, I think that could be a character after my own heart from what you've told me. :-)
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Date: 2008-09-30 05:05 am (UTC)Oh do try the HH series. It will not disappoint!
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Date: 2008-09-30 02:30 pm (UTC)No matter the reasons, I disliked the fact that they wrote Elizabeth out and, for the record, that they felt the need to wrote Carson out by killing him. I can't help it. I need a long time to really "click" with a cast but when I do, I start to view them all as important to the series-dynamics even if I dislike certain character traits in the one or other character. It's like family: even if uncle Willy or aunt Sophie trample on your nerves, they *are* part of the family and they're missed if they're gone.
What you said about Sam on Atlantis, yes, that's pretty insightful and correct. I'm not and never was a fan of SG-1. I watched it in the beginning but never developed a fannish preference for it but I know enough to understand that Sam was pretty much SG-1 scientific "brain" as well as a good soldier and outranks Sheppard. What you say about her trampling on Rodney's toes or John's authority - I guess that was mainly what SGA-fans feared and hated about the idea when it became public that Sam would become the new leader of Atlantis. Since I never got to know her very well in SG-1, I didn't miss anything in her character but was simply glad that she seemed to be clever enough to recognize that she shouldn't immediately meddle with the people who had years of Pegasus-experience over her. But I can see how SG-1 fans or even just long-time audience would see her as different as from how she was in SG-1 and would not like that very much.
All I have to do is imagine John and/or Rodney transferring to another base (= series) and see them become someone very different from what they were in Atlantis. I wouldn't like it and I imagine that SG-1 fans felt the same.
Woolsey OTOH is a page that has not much written on and can therefore develop in any direction without alienating a lot of SG-fans of whatever variety and from what I've seen of him so far, it is enjoyable because he was very different from both, Elizabeth as well as Sam, and him being a civilian (I love the idea of Atlantis having civilian leadership) *and* a bureaucrat - neither a scientist nor a soldier or a diplomat (at least not much of a diplomat) - makes for interesting situations. Really, it's a shame the series got canceled. :-(
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Date: 2008-09-30 05:04 pm (UTC)I don't blame TH for refusing to come back, even as a guest star. They treated her pretty shabbily in my opinion. But I would dearly like to know what the original story arc would have been with her during season 4. Season 5's Ghost in the Machine was clearly a somewhat sloppy attempt to wrap up that particular loose end, though I really don't know why they even bothered. Hmmm, this sounds a little grouchy, but I think that's largely because I *loathed* Whispers as an episode and the same writers are penning the movie. Bye, bye SGA. And when the movie tanks, it will be blamed on the actors and the aging demographic who watches them rather than the abysmal script-writing.
Ah, Woolsey in GITM was a gem though! I loved his 'do your worst' ultimatum, while the whole time his face is saying, 'don't call my bluff, please don't call my bluff'. Utterly priceless!
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Date: 2008-09-26 12:20 am (UTC)Laurie
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Date: 2008-09-26 12:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-09-26 03:49 am (UTC)and you know what i like best about your scenario? that it doesn't preclude them having hot man-sex because, you know, they're just buddies helping each other out <bg> i can still see Rodney being totally oblivious and John manfully repressing his emotions...
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Date: 2008-09-26 08:24 am (UTC)Hey, yes, because, you know ... gives Rodney more patience to woo Keller if John is there to take the edge of now and then. ;-)
>>i can still see Rodney being totally oblivious and John manfully repressing his emotions...
And now I want to read that scenario... *very broad hint to all the fanfic-authors* ;-)
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Date: 2008-09-26 07:00 am (UTC)Yes, of course we wear the tin-hats and the slash goggles, but seriously, neither need to work all that hard nowadays! You said it all: Miller's Crossing, Doppelganger, Quarantine, and now the opening scene of Tracker - pining!John is canon. Plus, episodes like Duet, the whole lack of Katie, Quarantine, and then The Shrine all point to Rodney *not* being in love with any woman, but rather always turning to his 'friend' John. All he needs is a nudge in the right direction and our boys are going to have their happily ever after (and, of course, the hot sex...)!
cep xxx
Reposted 'cause I fail at html...
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Date: 2008-09-26 09:10 am (UTC)Thank you. Glad you find it plausible. *G*
>>also kinda spooky because, as Madison says, we're pretty much writing this exact story at the moment. *g*<<
Apparently there *is* such a thing as the fannish hive-mind. ;-) But seriously, this doesn't surprise me because it's all there, right in front of us on the tv screen. All one has to do is put the pieces together. *g* And I can't tell you how glad I am to hear that you're actually writing this because, as I said before, when I wrote this entry I truly wished that someone would do exactly that. :-)
>>Yes, of course we wear the tin-hats and the slash goggles,
And we all look mighty fine in them. *G*
>>neither need to work all that hard nowadays!
Really not, they're actually feeding our ... *uhm* ... "preferences", that the right word? Yes. *G*
>>pining!John is canon.
This, *this* was the very idea that crossed - no, scratch that - *obsessed* my mind the very moment John's eyes shot up to Rodney's face and he said "I can't". It's all in his eyes at that moment and I thought "Holy sh... he *DOES* love Rodney - it's CANON!"
And it was the moment I fell a teeny, tiny, little bit in love with JoeF (contrary to my huge crush on Lt Col John Sheppard) because he wasn't afraid to give us a performance *this* wide open to interpretation. He could have played it with a stony face, a determined, harsh "I can't", a strong-willed "leader" not showing any feelings but hiding them firmly behind a strong mask, but he didn't. He gave us John Sheppard vulnerable and wide open with his emotions practically screaming in his eyes - equally emotionally fragile/breakable in that moment and determined to not let it happen - and a "I can't" that includes an unspoken "because it breaks my heart".
>>Rodney *not* being in love with any woman, but rather always turning to his 'friend' John.
I really think he's in love with this whole "family" idea he got from seeing Jeannie's family rather than with the women he courts. It's not as if he's consciously assessing the women's usability, it's more like he wants to have that family and in order to get it you first have to fall in love with a woman. Therefore - he does. (or thinks that's what he does)
It's not as if he's meeting a woman and thinks "Yes, I love her. I want to marry her and have children with her", somehow it's the other way round, more or less unconsciously even, I think. He has this idea slumbering in his brain and consequentially he "falls in love" with possibly matching candidates. He chases an idea, a concept - and one of which I think wouldn't really be fulfilling for him in the long run if he actually gets to live it some day and live the reality of having to spread your time and adjust your actions and behavior between the requirements of your children, your work and your spouse who is a person with her *own* wishes and dreams which might clash with your occasionally.
Rodney just doesn't strike me as the type for that. He's single minded when it comes to his work, he can be reckless towards the feelings and needs of other people, he'll sacrifice himself in order to save Atlantis and its people (though he will deny it and complain and kick but he's going to *do* it anyway) and if you want to be his SO, you have to be strong enough to deal with that, accept him as he is and - I think - you have to have the same "goal", the same priorities or it will lead to nowhere.
So far I've just seen one person on SGA who is not only able to handle all this, not only able to hold their own against Rodney *without* letting it open up a deep crack between them in the long run but actually seems to enjoy and *love* being in the situation of having to handle Rodney. *G*
And it's not Keller.
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Date: 2008-09-26 09:40 am (UTC)My view of Rodney is as someone who compartmentalises things and then, once certain 'items' are coded, both believes and tries to behave in such a way that is consistent with his coding. He has John coded as 'best friend', he had Katie, and now has Keller, coded as 'attractive females, of breeding age, who appear to be interested in me' and he has himself coded as 'straight, middle-aged genius'. So, when he starts thinking about wanting a family, the obvious way of fulfilling this wish is for him to believe himself to be in love with Katie/Keller. It is only when he tries to act on these beliefs that he starts getting odd data -- like John's response to him proposing to Katie or volunteering to go with Keller and like Rodney's ultimate inability to go through with proposing to Katie or his unconscious actions in The Shrine when it is to John he runs when he needs reassurance. He's still relying on his 'coding' - and hence the scene with Ronon at the end of Tracker - but we've already seen first-hand evidence that it is John with whom he can relax and be himself and it is John on whom he relies when things get tough.
Yeah, it certainly isn't Keller! *g*
cep xxx
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Date: 2008-09-26 12:47 pm (UTC)>>So, when he starts thinking about wanting a family, the obvious way of fulfilling this wish is for him to believe himself to be in love with Katie/Keller. <<
Yes, this whole concept makes a lot of sense. And it fits to the kind of analytical mind a scientist like Rodney has. And you're right, everything seems to be okay and allright and it fits - "in theory", so to speak, but as soon as he starts to act and puts the theory in practice, so to speak, he gets odd results which do not quite match the expected ones. *G*
Sooner or later he'll possibly start to question *why* things don't add up as expected and then he'll perhaps start to question his coding, the labels he has put on things, but he's not quite there yet. Not enough things have gone wrong yet to spur him into doing that. I could imagine that it'll actually need a year or two of marriage and/or the pressure of having to look after a child to make any questioning even possible.
I could also imagine that, at some point in the future, the first "code" he's going to question might be John's because John lets slip more and more of his feelings through and at some time Rodney is bound to notice that and putting it in context to his own feelings regarding John.
I can't help but suspect a little that - at the moment - Rodney wouldn't even be really *willing* to question his way of coding John, to acknowledge that John could mean more than a "best friend", not even if someone else brought up the idea, for two reasons:
a) if he did so, it would get in the way of his dreamed-of family-concept (and he's apparently not done with this yet), it would put him into a place where he would have to decide between things he wants without being ready to give up one of them
and
b) loving John is risky.
And I don't mean in the "what will others think, what will happen to John's career"-way of risky but emotionally risky. Losing John because he dies is a distinct possibility, given his profession, the situation they live in and John's character.
Losing John *now* - with John being his best friend - would be hard and hurt enough. But losing John after acknowledging to himself that he loves John in the romantic meaning, perhaps even after they actually *do* start a lover's relationship, *this* could be devastating and the sheer "not-quite-acknowledged-but-there-in-a-gut-feeling-kind-of-way"-fear of it could prevent Rodney from even *thinking* in this direction. Dangerous territory, keep out and watch your thoughts.
So, at the moment he seems to be better off with his coding firmly in place and not even going near the idea of possibly questioning any of it. (Yeah, probably an unconscious illusion *g*)
The question is, how long is this going to work? *G*
no subject
Date: 2008-09-26 01:33 pm (UTC)Yes - and therein lies the problem. Given John's unwillingness to break his silence and actually express himself openly to Rodney and also given Rodney's cluelessness as a result of he pre-determined 'coding', there isn't an easy solution. We've already seen that John wasn't going to interfere in Rodney's plans to propose to Katie, so I can quite easily imagine him never 'coming out' to Rodney about his feelings. We've also watched Rodney's response to almost losing John - and so also know that he's unlikely to approach John himself with anything other than friendly relief. Hell, Rodney was all but dying and neither of them did anything!
I think this is why fanfic often relies on the tried and tested trope of having someone else, usually Teyla, point out the obvious to one of the boys. Anything else (brush with death, ending DADT, amnesia, losing Atlantis) has pretty much already been shown not to work in canon. But still, canon has indicated pretty solidly that, despite all this, the feelings are truly there!
Given we're well into the last season, and given that TPTB are never in a million years gonna go for the ending we slashers would like, I can't really see any of the personal relationships on the show ever being completely resolved. I take comfort in the fact that this means we can't get Rodney/Keller and also that I can fix things the way they are supposed to be in fanfic!
cep xxx
no subject
Date: 2008-09-29 07:38 pm (UTC)Not as long as he has to think that Rodney has other preferences and dreams.
>>Hell, Rodney was all but dying and neither of them did anything!
That's not really a surprise, isn't it? With Rodney's "codes" firmly in place, chasing his family-dream and John knowing that and determined to not get into the way. But I think sometimes John can't help but slip up a little, as he did in "Miller's Crossing" or now in "Tracker" - after all, it can't be easy to watch the situation day in day out and keeping everything locked in.
But it's not enough (yet) to make Rodney question his coding or what he believes about John and himself. So, for the time being, they're pretty much stuck as long as none of them "moves".
>>(brush with death, ending DADT, amnesia, losing Atlantis) has pretty much already been shown not to work in canon.<<
Ha! We had "ending DADT" in canon? That would be the day. ;-) But seriously, no, I don't think this would actually change the situation because DADT - while surely a big obstacle - isn't what I see as *the* obstacle here. As for amnesia... I think the only "amnesia"-ep we had was actually "The Shrine". And look what happened - at least *while* the slowly progressing amnesia happened. *G* But as soon as Rodney's amnesia was cured ... we got Keller-chasing!Rodney and jealous!John. *G* The problem is, canon won't go *there*, ever, which means, whatever happens in canon, it will *never* be enough to produce a slashy happy end for the boys. Which means, in fanfic we have to work around that, creating situations at least slightly different from canon-happenings that they *can* work.
SGA is a family show, there *are* situations and happenings that will never appear on screen but make for perfect possibilities in fanfic. That's our way out, so to speak. *G*
>>I take comfort in the fact that this means we can't get Rodney/Keller and also that I can fix things the way they are supposed to be in fanfic!<<
Pretty much what I'm hoping for. If we do *not* get Rodney/Keller confirmed as an established couple, we have every possibility open for us. And even *if* we get Rodney/Keller - hey, let's break them up! *G* Maybe Rodney will be more susceptible to the idea of John being more than a best friend if Rodney has had a little taste of a Keller as his girlfriend/wife. *G*
When did a canonically established couple ever stop fandom from bringing their preferred pairing together? ;-)
no subject
Date: 2008-09-29 07:54 pm (UTC)Hee! Obviously my wishful thinking slipping in there! But you know what I mean.
The problem is, canon won't go *there*
Yes, unfortunately. *sighs* Still, more fun for us writers, eh?!
When did a canonically established couple ever stop fandom from bringing their preferred pairing together?
Yes - one of the benefits of a closed canon. *makes grabby hands for the characters* They're OURS!!!
cep xxx
PS Madison and I have *totally* fixed Tracker! Now to get the boys together and finish things off the way they should... *glee* You know, it might actually be a lot more fun this way.
no subject
Date: 2008-09-30 03:05 pm (UTC)Hee, I'm *so* looking forward to read that. :-)
no subject
Date: 2008-09-26 08:02 am (UTC)Plus, as it was with Katie, he has already started to put on an "act" around her. He's trying to impress her, "change" himself in order to appeal to her
That was my first thought on the opening scene in "Tracker": Rodney trying to be someone he isn't to impress a woman - again.
Interesting, why they shoot that scene at all. That's what I'm wondering.
Okay, there seems to ba a kind of unwritten law, that Hewlett and Flanigan have to be in every ep, even if it's only for a few minutes (or maybe it's in their contract, I don't know).
But if that scene only exists to have a short appearence by John (maybe the infirmary scene at the end was too short to count *g*) and to show that he is put out, why not have a similar scene in the gateroom instead? With Ronon, Keller and Rodney and John joining them, teasing Rodney a little. That would have been funny and totally unsubtextally (hehe, nice word,*g*)
But *that* scene, in Rodney's quarters, him and John alone, with all the backstory from "The last man", (which Rodney is still unaware of, because John never told him) John's facial expressions, his "with Keller", the dialog - okay, Carl Binder, you can tell me what you like (in JoeM's blog), as long as you show me what you did: jealous John. *g* Because the writer's intention dosn't count.
no subject
Date: 2008-09-26 09:20 am (UTC)*g* Wouldn't have expected otherwise from you. :-)
>>Rodney trying to be someone he isn't to impress a woman - again.
And it practically screams "upcoming failure"! Doesn't it? *G*
>>why not have a similar scene in the gateroom instead? With Ronon, Keller and Rodney and John joining them, teasing Rodney a little. That would have been funny and totally unsubtextally<<
Exactly. Instead we got the "intimacy" of Rodney's quarters and the two of them alone, we got the "heads up" camera-shot through the mirror, we got John actually *not* teasing him (which I would have expected if he would *not* feel affected)and we got Rodney visibly feeling uncomfortable about the fact that John found out and is confronting him with it. To me there is just one explanation for the existence of this scene: to show us what John feels and that Keller *does* affect their relationship/friendship.
>>Because the writer's intention doesn't count.
Yes. What counts is what we *got*, not what what we were supposed to get. *G*
no subject
Date: 2008-09-26 09:31 am (UTC)